DAY 243:
i’ve been a whirling dervish caught in a tumultuous whirlwind. however, i’ve got big things coming: big decision, big announcement. coming TO U soon. but first, i am super excited to share the second half of the Tawny Lara interview because the second part is EVEN BETTER than the first— i walked away thinking about it for weeks after.
i have ANOTHER two parter to send to you in the next two weeks, and i hope it will make up for my radio silence— it will all be explained soon.
now, without further ado:
Part 2: Sex in Sobriety with Tawny Lara
refresher: Tawny Lara is a Bisexual NYC-Based writer, public speaker, and Webby Award-Winning podcaster who’s made a name for herself as The Sober Sexpert in the online recovery space.
at this point: we were halfway through our conversation, and we were finally sinking our teeth into the juicy junk. she was still seated in front of the white folded screen, cherry blossoms buds blossoming (pictured above), her luscious curls piled on top of her head. prior to this interview, i had canceled on her twice because i got Covid. this interview took place the day after i got my first negative. all of this is to say: it’s a miracle i could string a sentence together at all. all the while, Tawny was on fire, as always, dropping necessary tidbits of wisdom for us all to gobble up and never spit out (we swallow around here 😉).
to read the first half of the interview, you can do so here.
without further ado, PART 2
Sex in Sobriety: Consent Under The Influence
PP: My next question: so in It Doesn’t Have To Be Awkward, we maintain the stance that you can't consent if you're under the influence.
TL: Yes.
PP: So I'm curious about what you think about that.
TL: I loved that chapter of the book because I am still trying to figure out how I feel about that. And to add another layer to it: Can you, as a sober person, have ethical drunk sex with someone else? You know, I genuinely don't know. On Friends when Chandler and Monica first hook up, he's like, “Are you too drunk or do you really wanna do this? Or how drunk are you?” something like that. And she goes, “Drunk enough to know that I wanna do this and not too drunk that I'll regret it in the morning.”And he responds: “That’s the perfect amount of drunk.”
TL: And so, as someone who's been there, I know that is a real liminal space. But how safe is it and how tricky? I really don't have a formulated answer and my editor wants me to have an answer for this too. So <laugh>
PP: Yeah. It's hard. When we were writing IDHTBA, it was definitely my dad's answer.
TL: Right.
PP: And all the time I was smoking weed to have sex, you know? And so it was like, yeah I can [consent under the influence], so I get it. But also I thought that when I smoked weed before I having sex and I was consenting, but now looking back, I'm like, “Oh, I was outsourcing to weed so that I could be consenting.”
TL: Right. Yeah.
PP: When you're in that state, you think that you're consenting because you get your brain and body to say, “Yeah.” But spiritually, something was wrong.
TL: Right.
PP: Like spiritually, I didn't wanna be present.
TL: mm-hmm <affirmative>.
PP: I think what is beautiful about your book, it's not asking you [the reader] to be sober. It's not asking you to dedicate your whole life to AA. It's not asking you to do all these things. It's asking you to question.
TL: mm-hmm <affirmative> what role it plays.
PP: And so [asking yourself], what does it feel like to not outsource to weed, alcohol, cocaine, meth, whatever, you know?
TL: Yeah.
PP: And the farther I get from it, the more I understand that now as a sober person, I can't betray myself at all. <laugh> like, because when I do, I panic and I can't hide it, you know?
PP: And so I think, especially for people who are just learning how to have sex and have interpersonal sexual relationships, I'm so glad that we put [that you can’t consent under the influence] in our book. Because I think it's so contrary to how young people are taught to have sex.
TL: Yes.
PP: But also I can understand how that feels alienating because all the sex I’ve had, for the most part, besides like 0.5% or whatever 1%— it’s probably a bigger percentage than that when I was drinking than smoking weed— I was consenting.
TL: mm-hmm <affirmative>.
PP: But now I understand that it wasn't full on consent. You know what I mean?
TL: Yeah. I mean, I think it's similar to second wave feminism, where there's the staunch feminists who say that heterosexual sex can never be consensual because of the inherent power dynamics at play.
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TL: That's very extreme and I understand where that argument is coming from. I think that the consent conversation is similar. The power dynamics are off, especially if one person's drunk and the other person's not, you know? So I don't know the answer to your question, I really don't know. I think I equally see both sides, but I need to figure out <laugh> how I feel about it.
PP: Well, I'm excited to read because I mean, I don't know if there's, it's hard. It's so hard. Consent is such a hard thing to write about <laugh> knowing from firsthand experience.
TL: Yeah. Well, also knowing that alcohol has, what's called a biphasic effect, where the first phase is where you relax. Or, at least, this is what the normies experience. They have a glass of wine, they relax, and they're good. The second phase is what we experienced when we just took it too far.
PP: Yeah.
TL: So, I think, learning that: can someone consent when they're in that first phase of alcohol taking its effect, and the enzymes are breaking down the alcohol? I just don't know, you know?
PP: Yeah.
TL: There’s this Red Hot Chili Peppers lyric in “Snow” where he says, “The more I see the less I know.” <laugh> That’s how I feel, where the deeper down the rabbit hole I go down on what alcohol does to us, the more I don't know how to answer this question. There's too much information. And I think there's arguments for both sides.
PP: Yeah.
TL: I struggle as a feminist and as a staunch advocate for consent, I wish I had a more firm answer.
PP: Yeah. That's what makes it so hard, the more you actually understand consent, the more you understand how difficult it is to define and make rules about. And make it , dare I say, sexy to talk about?
TL: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: It’s lightly terrifying.
TL: Yeah.
PP & TL: <laugh> <laugh>
TL: Yeah.
PP: In college, the campaign was “Consent is sexy.” That's what I was taught.
TL: Hmm.
PP: Which like, it almost is like dressing the devil up in a dress and being like, “Look, she's pretty!” But at the time, that was my first conversation about consent. I was 18.
TL: Yeah.
PP: Having [had] sex for two years [at that point]— granted I had very consensual sex. I was very lucky in that regard, but also, I didn't take it seriously. You know? I don't know.
TL: I’m sure you're familiar with Melissa Febos's work.
PP: Yes. Oh—
TL: I know, obsessed. Come on. She had an essay and a chapter in Girlhood about what she calls “empty consent.”
PP: Mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm
TL: Which I found very interesting. And, I'm again: nuance. I'm glad that we're talking about this and I'm glad that consent is also telling your kid they don't have to hug their cousin, that is also consent.
PP: Yes.
TL: Removing the sex from it, I think makes it a more digestible conversation.
PP: Yeah.
TL: And something that I talk about in the book is that if you go to any kink or sex parties, usually there isn’t alcohol because A) the kink community has always been about enthusiastic consent before we even knew about it. It was very much, “We need clear [communicated consent].”
PP: Yes.
TL: [We need] “No”’s, we need your boundaries. We need, what's allowed here. They have those conversations.
PP: Yeah.
TL: I've interviewed tons of sober porn stars and I learned that they have to sign a contract saying that they are not under the influence and they didn't imbibe the night before in order to film the scene.
PP: Wow.
TL: Because consent, it's just not very sexy when, like you said, [someone] is drunk on camera.
PP: It just doesn't look good.
*editor’s note: acting drunk/high in an improv/acting scene is not a sustainable or fun choice to watch! it’s a super limiting— not much to play with. Nor is it sustainable to ACTUALLY be drunk/high while improvising/acting— people notice! not in a good way! as someone who blacked out on stage once, it don’t work, honey!*
TL: Yeah! So the kink community, the porn community, they’re leaps and bounds ahead of the consent conversation, more than I think society probably ever will be. But, I included those in the book because people think that you have to be drunk to have crazy wild sex and it's like, no, you actually have to be sober. <laugh>
PP: It’s so true. Well, I would love to ask, what are your top sober dating tips?
TL: Okay. I'm a big fan of efficiency. I'm a Capricorn who does not wanna waste her time. So I liked putting “sober” on my dating apps. I found that to be efficient. I immediately learned if it was a deal breaker for other people, cuz it is for a lot of people. [Some] people don’t wanna date a sober person. That's just the reality. <laugh> It brings up some uncomfortable stuff for them. So, I say put “sober” on your profile. Even if you don't wanna be as straightforward, you could put a little red herring of “One Day At A Time” or people say “Friend of Bill W”, where it's something that people in the know <laugh> would pick up on, but the average person wouldn't really get it. And you know, there's an argument for leaving it off of your profile. Some people would rather wait until they've formed a genuine connection with someone before they share something so personal, which is totally valid. I tried that approach and I found it to be a waste of time when you have a couple good dates with someone and then you find out that drinking is pretty important to them. Not a great feeling.
TL: Earlier, I mentioned the importance of dating yourself before you go out there, spend a lot of time alone. AA recommends one year. Some people need less, some people need more, you know, it's just, don't do anything until you're ready. If the thought of going on a date without alcohol terrifies you, maybe you're not ready. You know, it's also being in touch with yourself. Is it a, “Holy? I'm terrified, I can't do this yet." Or “I'm just not ready to make that leap, but I know I should.” It's a fine line of knowing the benefit of staying in your comfort zone so you can nurture [yourself] and then knowing when it's time to kind of pop out a bit. No one else can tell you when you're ready.
TL: And sober date ideas. I have a whole chapter on sober date ideas and Spoiler Alert: most activities are alcohol free. We are the crazy people who add alcohol to it. I'm a big fan of experiential dates. So observing something external, going to a museum, going to a botanical garden, as opposed to just like sitting at a coffee shop and staring at each other <laugh> and it's awkward. And your foot's tapping and you're pulling at a hangnail and it's just so anxious. Walking around gets some of that anxious energy out. And then you're focusing on something external, like you're bonding over a piece of artwork or gorgeous flowers, or, you know, at a zoo, just, you know, doing something.
TL: I'm a big fan of going to rage rooms. That's so fun. I cannot recommend it enough. One of the biggest complaints that I'm sure you're familiar with is when couples are together for a long time, the passion fades. So really exploring other ways to ignite that passion and do different type[s of things]; we have different types of passions. I remember Nick was really stressed out at work one day and I was like, okay, meet me at 39th and 5th [Ave] and wear clothes you don't care about <laugh>. So we went, walked into the wrecking club and smashed computer printers and Nintendos and old TVs with Crowbars <laugh> you make a playlist and we're just listening to Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails, pre-cancelled Manson <laugh> but oh my God, it was so incredible.
TL: And so we just beat the s*** out of these devices for like 15 minutes drenched in sweat. And we were the most Zen. We were like, after leaving a yoga class, <laugh> those kinds of places are all over the country. Ax throwing. It's okay to be aggressive. It's okay to get in touch with that. My passion in sobriety, I've also gotten very political. So, going to protests, going to vote, going to city council meetings, like those are also really passionate things too. We’re examining the role alcohol plays in our love lives and examining what passion looks like for you now, cuz that changes too.
PP: I love that. I love that a lot. And then my final question, just because I'm curious: top three sober sex tips.
TL: Yes.
TAWNY LARA’S TOP THREE SOBER SEX TIPS
1. I cannot endorse masturbation enough. There's nothing wrong with it. Everything is right with it. And I am very grateful to have grown up with a mother who was very sex positive. I'm sure you can relate <laugh> which has, pros and cons. We can probably talk about [that] at another time. But really spending time in early sobriety to connect with your body and read erotica, watch different types of porn, figure out what else is out there. Drunk, you may not have let yourself explore these <laugh> curiosities.
2. This is gonna sound silly, but we all have that thing we've always wanted to try— Google it. Just look at it and see if you're actually interested in it. And then you can share that with your partner. Say, “Hey, I would love to try this tonight. What do you think?” And if they don't want to, that's totally okay. Maybe that's something you do on your own. Who knows. But really getting in touch with my sexuality was a huge part of my sobriety. Embracing my bisexuality, figuring out what actually turns me on versus what porn told me that I should be turned on by, you know, that's something I'm still unlearning.
TL: There’s a lot of herbal aphrodisiacs out there: Ashwagandha, damiana, Schizandra Berry. There's something really mindful about sipping a cup of tea or splitting a pot of tea with someone and just downloading your day, enjoying a nice herbal tea. Connecting on an intimate level and then bringing that connection into the bedroom, which I never did when I was drinking. It was very much like, “Let's get up and then have sex.” And then I'd probably cry cuz they didn't call me the next day. you know what I mean? <laugh>
PP: Yeah. Yep.
TL: I think sober sex or just alcohol free sex or drinking less when you have sex will really give you a chance to reconnect with your body and figure out what you have to communicate with your partners, because we're not mind readers and you gotta tell your partner what you're into.
3. Real quick, it's important to say about sober dating and sober sex: never do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. I did that a lot. When I drank, I did things to placate the other person, ignoring the fact that I actually didn't like it. So advocate for yourself. Which is, again, why it's so important to spend time alone figuring out what you like and what you don't like. If you're dating someone who gives you shit for not drinking or for drinking less, that’s a red flag. Get out— leave. If someone's trying to pressure you to do something in bed that you don't wanna do: they’re not worthy. They're not worthy of your body or your mind at all. And it took me a very long time to learn that. Yeah.
PP: Oh beautiful. I so enjoyed this conversation.
TL: Me too.
PP: I am so glad this finally happened. Thank you for being flexible with my illness. This is like my first, like <laugh> sorry about my COVID brain. I'm usually much sharper. I'm just like, boom. But I so enjoyed—
TL: Oh my God. I think you're very sharp.
PP: Oh, thank you.
TL: Oh, this is great. Yeah. And if you have follow up questions or anything, let me know.
PP: Yeah. So when I do interviews generally, I'm pretty true to transcription <laugh>.
thank you for reading, dear gems. i learned so much from Tawny in this conversation, and i would love to interview more sober writers in the future. if you have someone in mind, write it in the comments! reply to this email! there are so many interesting, brilliant sober people out there that i would love to chat with.
but of course, i cherish Tawny and the work that she does, and of course, she is just a bright, bold person— very inspired by her.
if you enjoyed the second half of this interview, please don’t be shy! write what you loved in the comment section!
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